Curse

Malis Of Monrovia · Oct 22, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

With Shock + 4 attack skills being the only thing you can do, decent players will notice what you're doing.

Uhm.. they will notice one way or the other. If the match goes on long, both parties will recognize each other's builds. Knowing what build I have is one part, countering it, is another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Also, 4 attack skills is less a spike than omg lots of damage. Especially with Decapitate where the most significant attack comes toward the end, you want to finish quickly. It could work against bad players, but that's not saying much.

I gain adrenaline first, then at one single moment I shock and release. Thats a spike to me.

All shock wars spike the same way. Shock, Frenzy and dmg follows. Decap just gives more dmg then the normal Evis in a spike. It works, if u know how to play it.

Tyla · Oct 22, 2008, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

- Dont need the elemental dmg, dont have an urgent need to negate the -5/20% from my enemies.

And at times when you'll need to hit an enemy Warrior or will do for a little extra pressure, you're kinda stumped. And no, you don't even "need" a shield, it's called "maximizing your efficiency".

Quote:

- Put in Vamp if it fits for you. This is my preference.

And your preference isn't efficiency, when if you're being serious you should be maximizing efficiency.

Quote:

- But we can always equip ourselves with the gear we need that helps us to fulfill our roles in pvp: Killing stuff.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Quote:

"Utility: the state or quality of being useful" -Dictionary.com
- I think spiking down a monk is useful.
- Good this thread is about "A crazy PvP Axe Warrior Build".

This thread is about "a crazy PvP Axe Warrior build", not "a bad axe Warrior build". Spiking down Monks is useful, but it's either going to fail because your spike takes too long to actually do, or your utility isn't enough to actually take down a Monk.

Quote:

- I agree with u on using the 20/20 for spikes. But who said that 20/20 shouldn't be camped? Why not. Axe is just an Axe if ur hitting base dmg on a target. Occasional crit is a nice bonus.

"occasional" is a nice bonus. "consistent" is a better bonus.

Oh, and the "I agree with using the 20/20 for spikes" and "who said 20/20 shouldn't be camped" heavily contradict each other.

Quote:

- Superior Rune of Axe Mastery greatly increases my dmg output

And at the same time decreases your survivability by 10%. It increases damage output, but forces you to target switch on an enemy Spirit Bond (14 hits 59 max) and makes you die easier. Superiors are never a good choice in PvP, and you've got no breakpoints to hit.

Quote:

- You hardly win in PvP without a healer, so 75hp doesnt matter for me

In that case, let's all run superior runes on all characters on all armour pieces! Just because you have a healer doesn't mean you have to depend solely on it; you have to make your own contributions.

Quote:

- Again, like I said. I don't take Furious for the adrenaline gained if it's blocked, thats a secondary benefit.
- Furious is the finisher incase Decap didn't rip through your target yet.
- Pop Furious occasionally for dmg or use it to charge up adrenaline when someone is blocking.

Decap won't kill your target unless something hits after Decap.

And you are also assuming yourself that using Furious would give enough adrenaline for Rush. It is in your own post; and don't try and deny it, because that very quote is either you admitting you were wrong or trying to keep out of that. It isn't our English that is the problem if what you meant was true, it's yours.

Quote:

6. Pop furious and Rush away to next target

Savio · Oct 22, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

Knowing what build I have is one part, countering it, is another.

Your build has a single function - Shock & unload. If your opponent screws that up for you (assuming you haven't screwed yourself over with Shock & Decapitate already), what do you do?

Quote:

I gain adrenaline first, then at one single moment I shock and release. Thats a spike to me.

If that was the case, a warrior with 7 attack skills has an even better spike. Please stop trying to redefine GW terminology.

xDusT II · Oct 23, 2008, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

You guys fail at using Decap.

[build prof=W/E axe mastery=12+1+3 strength=12+1 air magic=3][Frenzy][Body Blow][Executioner's Strike][Decapitate][Furious Axe][Rush][Shock][Resurrection Signet][/build]

DMG COUNT: 20, 36, 42, 53 + deepwound, 37 = 188 raw dmg excluding base dmg hits & crits.

Lets see, Base axe dmg is 6-28, take the average, thats 11.
You hit 4 times in this combo making average base dmg 44 + raw dmg = 232 dmg (still excluding deepwound and crits).

Usage:

1. Build up full adrenaline with a -5e axe (F2) on different person than target
2. Pop rush and hit once more to be completly full
3. Rush to target and shock
4. Frenzy, Body Blow, Executioners Strike, Decap
5. Quickly press Esc, then switch to normal axe (F1) to gain 5e
6. Pop furious and Rush away to next target
7. Go F3, build up adrenaline and energy and redo combo

F1 15^50, 20/20, +30hp Axe & Str. Shield -5/20%, +30hp
F2 15/-5e, 20/20, +30hp Axe & Str. Shield -5/20%, +30hp
F3 15^50, Zealous, +30hp Axe & Str. Shield -5/20%, +30hp
F4 Longbow / Furious Spear + Shield

These numbers are wrong. Base axe damage may be 6-28 at rank 12, but increases logarithmically from then on. Because of this, each point you put above 12 into weapon mastery increases your output by less than the last point, meaning 16 Axe mastery really isn't all that much different from 14 Axe Mastery. You also forgot to include bonuses from 15% modifiers and customisation bonuses (+20%)

Some quick numbers:
At 14 Axe with a 15% damage bonus and a customised weapon, your damage ranges from 9-41, reaching 59 with a critical hit. This averages to 32 damage.

At 16 Axe Mastery, under the same conditions, your damage ranges from 10 to 44, with criticals reaching 63 damage. Your average damage is only going to be 3 points higher at 35 damage. This means you need to connect 25 more hits to make up for the loss of health. Considering you don't even use a vampiric axe, you essentially forfeit that bonus.

Looking at decapitate:
At 14 Axe, 13 Strength you'll hit for 114 damage.
At 16 Axe, 13 Strength, you'll hit for 125 damage.

That's only 11 more damage for 75 health. Needing approximately 7 more uses to be ahead of your health loss. (Obviously this doesn't factor a lot of things but it's just to give a rough idea of the damage slowdown).

For comparisons, Eviscerate at 14 Axe 13 Strength will strike for 96 damage if it also lands a critical.

Conventional warrior weapon sets should also look like this:
Furious Spear of Fortitude and Shield with +30 health and +10 Armour vs X
Vampiric Axe of Fortitude and Shield with +30 health and 20% Blind reduction
Zealous Axe of Fortitude and Shield with +30 health and 20% Blind reduction
Elemental Axe of Fortitude and Shield with +30 health and 20% Blind reduction

Sundering can also be used on spikes for the chance of high damage sundercrits (~4%)

Quote:

lol? A good W/E doesnt shock spike until he knows that the target can't block, or that their blocking skill is recharging/disabled.

And lol I think I understand ur notion, you thought I meant Furious would give me adrenaline on hit. No u naab XD

You can only rush when you have the adrenaline to, can't you? Meaning you hit 3 more times, and since ur still in frenzy rush will be up in no time.

I fail huh? lol. pwn yourself.

Your instructions were ambiguous. It's not that difficult to interpret "Pop furious and Rush away to next target" as mistaking Furious Axe for giving you the adrenaline for Rush.

Quote:

- Dont need the elemental dmg, dont have an urgent need to negate the -5/20% from my enemies.

Elemental weapons are for bypassing another Warrior's natural 20 armour versus physical damage, leading to ~20% increase in damage.

Quote:

"Utility: the state or quality of being useful" -Dictionary.com
- I think spiking down a monk is useful.
- Good this thread is about "A crazy PvP Axe Warrior Build".

The terms used in-game don't often mean their exact dictionary definition. Utility is often used to loosely describe any skill which isn't used primarily for damage or healing. Eg. Shock.

Quote:

Sure, then i'll take a -5/stance

This doesn't exist. If your thinking -2 while in Stance then that's still bypassed by using an elemental weapon, making AL+10X the best defensive shield inscription.

Anywho hopefully my numbers are right because I did them quickly. Correct me anywhere if I'm wrong.

Malis Of Monrovia · Oct 23, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

That has nothing to do with what I said.

Yes it does, u said "there is no set working for most good builds, as it is mainly situational."

I just tend to lean on more dmg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

This thread is about "a crazy PvP Axe Warrior build", not "a bad axe Warrior build". Spiking down Monks is useful, but it's either going to fail because your spike takes too long to actually do, or your utility isn't enough to actually take down a Monk.

Ok, here in essence u say my build is bad because my spike takes too long. So lets see:

Conventional Shock Axe:
Frenzy, Evis, Exe Strike, Agonizing, Bulls, Rush, Shock, Res Sig.

My Decap Build:
Frenzy, Bodyblow, Exe Strike, Decap, Furious, Rush, Shock, Res Sig.

Now, we all know a conventional shock axe can take down a monk.
Uses one KD, and pops combo. Then he/she waits for target, to get up, so it can get KD'ed again. Meaning there is 'waiting time' for the person to get up. Instead of waiting, I slip into that crack of space and fill it with dmg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Oh, and the "I agree with using the 20/20 for spikes" and "who said 20/20 shouldn't be camped" heavily contradict each other.

Ok so we can't gain adrenaline on 20/20 and spike on 20/20? How does that contradict? I pour milk in one glass, I don't have to pour the milk in another glass to drink it right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And at the same time decreases your survivability by 10%. It increases damage output, but forces you to target switch on an enemy Spirit Bond (14 hits 59 max) and makes you die easier. Superiors are never a good choice in PvP, and you've got no breakpoints to hit.

Ok spirit bonded targets are bad targets to try and bring down anyway. I presume you wouldn't pop a combo on a spirit bonded person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

In that case, let's all run superior runes on all characters on all armour pieces! Just because you have a healer doesn't mean you have to depend solely on it; you have to make your own contributions.

Ok thats just dumb. I just said IMO that a sup rune increases my dmg, meaning it increases my chances for the target to drop. That is my contribution; dropping the target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Decap won't kill your target unless something hits after Decap.

Uhm yeah thats why I said, switch axe, pop furious?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And you are also assuming yourself that using Furious would give enough adrenaline for Rush. It is in your own post; and don't try and deny it, because that very quote is either you admitting you were wrong or trying to keep out of that. It isn't our English that is the problem if what you meant was true, it's yours.

'

lol I didn't try to deny it. I assumed that people would understand my notion since Furious Axe's description clearly says what it does. Guess they didn't.

As u can see I didn't comment on all the points, because those I accept and agree with now.

xDusT II · Oct 23, 2008, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

Ok spirit bonded targets are bad targets to try and bring down anyway. I presume you wouldn't pop a combo on a spirit bonded person.

You can still force the monks to waste energy by simply building adren on the SB'ed target. That way, the SB is wasted and the monk is likely to have to cast another prot/heal on your target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

Ok, here in essence u say my build is bad because my spike takes too long. So lets see:

Conventional Shock Axe:
Frenzy, Evis, Exe Strike, Agonizing, Bulls, Rush, Shock, Res Sig.

My Decap Build:
Frenzy, Bodyblow, Exe Strike, Decap, Furious, Rush, Shock, Res Sig.

Now, we all know a conventional shock axe can take down a monk.
Uses one KD, and pops combo. Then he/she waits for target, to get up, so it can get KD'ed again. Meaning there is 'waiting time' for the person to get up. Instead of waiting, I slip into that crack of space and fill it with dmg.

Eh, this is really theory crafting but most clean spikes will kill a target on the Executioner's, as this is where maximum damage compression occurs (Highest raw damage + Deep Wound Trigger). Of course this implies that there are other contributors to the spike or the target is of low health/unprotted.

The time waiting for a monk to stand up to knock-lock them isn't really as long as you make it seem. A common scenario will look as follows:

Bull's lands KD -> Frenzy -> Eviscerate -> Executioner's -> Shock -> Attack -> Attack -> Slightly Held D-Chop

However after the Executioner's, your really just threatening the bars after your main damage skills.

The main issue I see with the bar you listed is that while you may be dealing more damage numerically, the damage isn't compressed in a way that really pushes the bars quickly. I'm assuming typical usage would look like:

Shock -> Frenzy -> Body Blow -> Executioner's -> Decapitate -> Furious Axe

The problem I'm seeing is that your largest spike comes as they stand up (right after Body Blow), meaning they can get off quarter casts like SB or RoF to negate the most dangerous part of the chain. Being stuck in Frenzy for awhile after your chain is also fairly dangerous if you get lineback kd'ed after your decapitate. Switching weapons to trigger the DW is also a little clumsy when you want it to occur as fast as possible, although at this stage I'm just nitpicking.

Malis Of Monrovia · Oct 23, 2008, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Finally, someone I can humble myself to.

Thnx dust for the numbers, but I intentionally left out the dmg from +15% and + 20% custo. I wanted to depict raw dmg, no additives.

Malis Of Monrovia · Oct 23, 2008, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Your build has a single function - Shock & unload. If your opponent screws that up for you (assuming you haven't screwed yourself over with Shock & Decapitate already), what do you do?

Prepare for the next spike ofcourse. But you haven't defined 'screwing up my build'.

Blind;
Wait till it wears off, body block, stick to target.

Cripple;
Wait till it wears off, what else to do

Interupt;
'Unload' remaining skills that are full and stack up on adrenaline again to get my bar full once more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

If that was the case, a warrior with 7 attack skills has an even better spike. Please stop trying to redefine GW terminology.

Redefine? lol.

Target, shock and release all at once, target dead. Thats not a spike to you?

**Marty Silverblade** · Oct 23, 2008, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

Target, shock and release all at once, target dead. Thats not a spike to you?

It isn't a spike when it takes 4 attacks and a weapon swap. A half awake Monk can catch that.

Malis Of Monrovia · Oct 23, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

The problem I'm seeing is that your largest spike comes as they stand up (right after Body Blow)

They stand on Decap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

It isn't a spike when it takes 4 attacks and a weapon swap. A half awake Monk can catch that.

You're talking like i'm attacking with faintheartedness on. I got frenzy + I cancel with Esc so I there is no pauze in weapon switch.

Tyla · Oct 23, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

Yes it does, u said "there is no set working for most good builds, as it is mainly situational."

I just tend to lean on more dmg.

Then roll a Dervish if you're going to do next to nothing to support your damage. And again, how are you going to use Shock on every spike? Exhaustion will heavily overwhelming.

Quote:

Ok, here in essence u say my build is bad because my spike takes too long. So lets see:

Conventional Shock Axe:
Frenzy, Evis, Exe Strike, Agonizing, Bulls, Rush, Shock, Res Sig.

My Decap Build:
Frenzy, Bodyblow, Exe Strike, Decap, Furious, Rush, Shock, Res Sig.

Now, we all know a conventional shock axe can take down a monk.
Uses one KD, and pops combo. Then he/she waits for target, to get up, so it can get KD'ed again. Meaning there is 'waiting time' for the person to get up. Instead of waiting, I slip into that crack of space and fill it with dmg.

You're filling it with damage, but allowing a gap for a skill to be cast. 6 seconds on the floor and the possibility of interrupting and disabling a skill will be immensely more powerful, and as said before, you can bring a bar with 7 attack skills and it's using the same logic you're using.

Quote:

Ok so we can't gain adrenaline on 20/20 and spike on 20/20? How does that contradict? I pour milk in one glass, I don't have to pour the milk in another glass to drink it right?

Read it again. If you agree you should use Sundering on spikes, then you're disagreeing that Sundering should be camped.

Quote:

Ok spirit bonded targets are bad targets to try and bring down anyway. I presume you wouldn't pop a combo on a spirit bonded person.

Enemy Monk loses 10 energy, and if you're smart enough to not use attack skills you could save time so you don't have to target switch and get more hits and pressure in in the process, and waste quite a bit of an enemy Monks' enemy. Spiking a protted target is bad anyway.

Quote:

Ok thats just dumb. I just said IMO that a sup rune increases my dmg, meaning it increases my chances for the target to drop. That is my contribution; dropping the target.

And with your "spike" taking too long, it's easy to stop therefore your chances of dropping a target, at the same time as the increase, decrease. Not to mention your survivability.

My main point there was that because you're using a superior rune because "without a healer you'd lose anyway", everyone might as well use superiors because of that same reason.

Quote:

Uhm yeah thats why I said, switch axe, pop furious?

And you're still stuck in Frenzy. Furious won't do crap to what happens, because you'll build more adrenaline and pressure target switching, so you might as well be running Power Attack instead...

Quote:

lol I didn't try to deny it. I assumed that people would understand my notion since Furious Axe's description clearly says what it does. Guess they didn't.

If you assumed that then all I can say is you're attempting to troll, or you're in denial. Either way if you "assumed" that you shouldn't have placed it in your post.

Bobby2 · Oct 23, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

...I'm surprised you guys are actually trying to convince this moron...

Bad skill is bad. Evis > Decap in so many ways I can't even begin to list them. Plz stop it hurtz my eyez

Da Rk Bl Ad E · Oct 23, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Evis > decapitate

'nuff said

be quiet

Kale Ironfist · Oct 23, 2008, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

You're talking like i'm attacking with faintheartedness on. I got frenzy + I cancel with Esc so I there is no pauze in weapon switch.

Even with Frenzy, it takes 3.55 seconds to execute 4 attacks. Adding Shock anywhere before the end takes another 1.5 seconds to execute, if it's at the end, .75 seconds.

Bad Monks react on the first hit. Good Monks react before the Warrior has even closed in. When you're trying to become a better player, you don't prepare for the best scenario, you prepare for the worst scenario and overcome it. The build you've proposed won't be as efficient as a Shock/Evisc.

xDusT II · Oct 24, 2008, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

They stand on Decap.

You're talking like i'm attacking with faintheartedness on. I got frenzy + I cancel with Esc so I there is no pauze in weapon switch.

Whoops my mistake, you're quite correct on standing on decap

Shock (0.75)
Aftercast (0.75)
Body Blow (0.88)
Executioner's (0.88)
Decapitate (0.88)
Furious Axe (0.88)

Aftercast -> Executioner's (Returning to neutral position) takes 2.51 seconds, meaning your Decapitate just has enough time to connect at 2.95 seconds (Attacks connect midway through their animation) before they stand up, although they can still prot against furious axe, which can still negate a large portion of the spike.

Electric Friend · Oct 24, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Should this thread even be in The Campfire PVE section? This is a question about a PVP build right?

**Marty Silverblade** · Oct 24, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

Whoops my mistake, you're quite correct on standing on decap

Shock (0.75)
Aftercast (0.75)
Body Blow (0.88)
Executioner's (0.88)
Decapitate (0.88)
Furious Axe (0.88)

+~1 second for weapon swapping.

Malis Of Monrovia · Oct 24, 2008, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

+~1 second for weapon swapping.

Wrong. Just like Backbreaker sins do, I utilize the Esc button to cancel attack after Decap. Weapon switch has no pause.

Malis Of Monrovia · Oct 24, 2008, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Even with Frenzy, it takes 3.55 seconds to execute 4 attacks. Adding Shock anywhere before the end takes another 1.5 seconds to execute, if it's at the end, .75 seconds.

I tend to trust Dust on this. Since his calculations have proven right in his previous posts. In the combo, on Furious, the monk (or target) gets up. If she/he doesn't cast anything to save him/herself, and Furious hits, target dies. And im saying this taking an example out of a monk who has full life. If he/she was around 75%, then monkey dies at Decap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Bad Monks react on the first hit. Good Monks react before the Warrior has even closed in.

I agree. Still, u haven't counted the many variables in PvP. Party members needs healing, hex remove, condition remove, others damage dealers. It's about observing the situation, and at that moment when the monk isnt paying attention to me, I slip in and my axe follows.

For example, after the important heals go off to save someone, I rush in with full adrenaline and bash his face.

Bad warriors rush from 100 kilometers in a straight line towards the monk. Good warriors observe the situation and react before the monk reacts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

When you're trying to become a better player, you don't prepare for the best scenario, you prepare for the worst scenario and overcome it. The build you've proposed won't be as efficient as a Shock/Evisc.

This build I meant for RA. It's the same concept as the conventional Shock Axe but with more dmg. For a warrior, the worst scenario is you having a good healer and not dropping your target. This build does it's job.

Kale Ironfist · Oct 24, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malis Of Monrovia

I tend to trust Dust on this. Since his calculations have proven right in his previous posts. In the combo, on Furious, the monk (or target) gets up. If she/he doesn't cast anything to save him/herself, and Furious hits, target dies. And im saying this taking an example out of a monk who has full life. If he/she was around 75%, then monkey dies at Decap.

Dust used rounding for every attack, I didn't round until the end of the equation. The difference is minimal (~.03 seconds), but there is still a difference.

Quote:

I agree. Still, u haven't counted the many variables in PvP. Party members needs healing, hex remove, condition remove, others damage dealers. It's about observing the situation, and at that moment when the monk isnt paying attention to me, I slip in and my axe follows.

For example, after the important heals go off to save someone, I rush in with full adrenaline and bash his face.

Bad warriors rush from 100 kilometers in a straight line towards the monk. Good warriors observe the situation and react before the monk reacts.

The point I was making (which, in retrospect, wasn't very clear) is that your build lacks Bull's Strike to punish kiting. That introduces extra pressure and helps to break Monks (or any caster really) better than the ~25-30 extra damage a Decapitate would introduce. Especially if that Bull's Strike was the opportunity you were waiting for to unload a spike.

Quote:

This build I meant for RA. It's the same concept as the conventional Shock Axe but with more dmg. For a warrior, the worst scenario is having a good healer not dropping your target. This build does it's job.

It trades away some pressure for extra spike potential. Some might prefer it, but obviously those who're arguing with you don't.

For 8 player teams, pressure is in all likelihood stronger than slightly higher damage on a spike, since increased pressure = increased energy usage by the opposing team = increased chance a vulnerability appears (spike chance).